XC L/D - All in good time vs. Dont punish yourself

I'm about to commit to a sailplane purchase, and there's a factor upon which I'd like some opinions... I have not heard or read a debate on the impact of 'club class' performance versus more contemporary std class / 15M polar performance.

While this may spark some opinionated comments, I want to hear both sides. I want to be able to reliably go XC in the western US without feeling like I need to trade up in a year or two to get my diamonds, and race around with 'the gang.' I have about 150 hours, mostly in a 1-26, but feel comfortable flying a duo-discus recently.

My question is not which glider to buy, but what kind of L/D (or polar performance) is needed (assuming the ship is reasonably easy to fly). It seems that the LS-4s, DG 300s, Discus', ASW-20s, Ventus' (and of course newer ships) are close enough in performance that pilot skill is a fairly dominant factor. What is the impact of performance with a plane like a Std Cirrus, ASW-19, or similar polar when flying with the 40:1, faster ships?

Not all glass is created equal as JJ and many others will attest. 40:1 should not be your formost concern. You can do a search (maybe) of various posting as there has been a lot of discussion on this very subject...especially LS4 vs...whatever. 40:1 at 44 knots is not the same as 40:1 at 62 knots....

1) Are parts available? (trailer and plane) 2) Is it in good shape? (both again) 3) Any major repairs of damage history? 4) Good trailer? (this is important! Good rigging in trailers helps a lot!) 5) !! Are you comfortable in it? !! (ergonomics) 6) Does it have automatic control hookups? 7) Does the glider weigh what it should according to the manual? (undocumented damage/repairs/mods?) 8) Speaking of documents, are ALL the logs available since original? (watch out for this!) 9) Standard C of A? 10) Has it been inspected by YOUR designated inspector? 11) Do all the instruments and such perform properly? 12) Have you flown the exact model yet?

Were it up to me, I would opt for a 1984 or newer machine. If there is any way possible to fly it first, do so. Stay away from all flying horizontal stabs. Stay away from balsa wood.

If you want to go cross-country, hop in a 1-26 and launch at Minden or California City and have a blast! If you want more L/D, get a 1-35 or Pegusas or something like that. I have hours in an SZD Junior, 35:1 and it would not penetrate worth beens, but was altogether a very nice ship and worth every penny... just a slower flying speed. I would get at least 30:1 (ala ASK-21 ) or better. Going cross-country in a 30:1 ship is very doable and as challenging as flying a higher performance ship. Whatever the o'l walleet' can stand...

JMHO (s)

Armand

Basic rule: The diffrence between an over 20 year old club class ship (ASW-19, Hornet, DG-100) to a current standard class glider (ASW-24, LS-8, Discus) is a lot less than pilot factor. If two equal, but good pilots fly each of these ships, the performance penalty of the older ship will be between 10 and 20 perccent. Not more.

By clever team flying (following the better ship on an optimized flight path) you can make the difference nearly disappear.

Bye

Jamey,

Just a thought

Well... Some nonsense is hiding here in that post... Why? Just because for a price of 1-26 in poor condition (4-5K$) I could get a good Foka 4 or 5 which will stay up with ASW-15 or Libelle. Why go for worse (in performance) glider for same money?

Regards,

Janusz Kesik Aeroclub Czestochowa
www.soaring.enter.net.pl

The other difference is that new gliders are much safer (automatic controls, crashworthy cockpits, better spin characteristics), easier to maintain, usually come with much better trailer and instruments, easier to fly, and oh by the way perform better. The only reason to buy an old glider is if money is an issue. It is for most of us, but there is no performance, safety or other reason that a (lucky!) rich newer pilot should not get a good recent standard class glider.

John Cochrane

That's the tricky point I always feel like standing when I try to follow a new glider with full of water Regards,

You will need to be more specific about your short and long term objectives.

Yes, you can go cross country in Western USA in an ASW-19 or similar performance glider.

No you won't be able to keep up with a good pilot in a Ventus or an LS-8 or similar performance glider. Does it matter? Depends on what you want to do.

If you expect to fly solo a lot, and your objective is to earn all your FAI badges, an ASW-19 or similar is perfect.

If you aspire to club contests such as Arizona Soaring Association's handicap series, the ASW-19 or similar won't stop you placing well.

If you want to advance to SSA sanctioned Sport class contests then the ASW-19, or similar, will still be fine.

However, if you expect to fly a lot of XC with experienced pilots in newer ships you will need a glider with performance as good or better than theirs. With your experience level you won't keep up otherwise, and you won't learn from flying with them.

If you expect to be seriously competing in SSA FAI class contests in the next 5 years then buy the best you can afford. The ASW-19 and similar will leave you in the 'also ran' group.

So, money to spare and lots of contest ambition, go and buy a glider that's competitive in the class you have chosen.

Or, more modest budget, aiming for badges and maybe Sports class, then buy a good older ship. They can be bought for about half the cost and offer more fun than you will be able to handle for a while.

Andy (GY)

'getting your diamonds in the 1-26?'

The sort of person who could expect to buy such a glider and then get their diamonds would have to be VERY good. Or extremely patient. Or fly in the best area in the country (and still be very good).

It is no use saying that people have managed to get their 500 km in such a glider or other, (Hanna Reich did some exceptional flights in a Grunau for example), the average pilot needs a bit of help and bottom of the range gliders will get the average pilot no where. Better to buy a glider that doesn't restrict you. Ask yourself - would you be happy or worried 20 miles downwind in a particular glider with a 4000' cloudbase? If the answer is 'No Way! Scary distance.', don't go for that model. There is no need to own a state of the art glider, and I certainly don't own one, but a reasonable glider will give an average pilot a reasonable chance, and reasonable opportunities to practice. Sure, Karl Streidecker (spelling?) set a world record in a Ka8, but you or I are not likely to do the same, or even half the distance he did. Once you have a glider that exceeds 35 or 36 to one, things improve no end. If you get above 40 to one, great! It then simply becomes how much can I afford? But you can get by with almost anything between these figures if money is the main problem and still have a great time.

john (first glider = libelle, current = pegasus.)

This seems pretty sensible to me.

The only thing I would add is to be sure that your are able to read a sectional chart and navigate with it while flying your new glider cross country. The one thing a high performance glider can do to a novice XC pilot is get him lost in a hurry.

You haven't been really lost until you are lost in a glider.

One of our local pilots found that on his first XC that he couldn't unfold and read his map and still keep his new glider under control. He also found that one part of the American high plains looks just about like any other from the air. When he landed, he had to ask where he was - very bad form.

BTW, there is a protocol if you land at an airport and aren't sure where you are. Don't ask anybody, just nonchalantly walk into a pilot lounge and look for a big map on the wall. There will be a string coming out of a hole in the map - that's where you are. (Much better for your image.)

Bill Daniels

Hello,

Just two small corrections of names:

Hanna Reitsch Karl Striedeck

Regards,

Janusz Kesik