What glider if not a Speed Astir?

So some of you really don't think to highly of the Speed Astir. What then would be your recommendations for a first glider for a low time pilot training & soloing in a G103 II A? I need something under $20,000. that will keep me happy for a while. Thanks for your input!

The Pegase would fit the bill perfectly. The LS-4 or Jantar Std 3 as well, but they would cost a bit more.

Mosquito, ASW-19, Libelle, 1-34 (in N. America).

The ASW-19 would do as well as the Pegase, not quite as good a performance, but should be cheaper.

The ASW-19 was the machine of choice for the U.K. team in the Junior Sport Class World Gliding Championships this year, it has also been bought by the Surrey & Hants. gliding club for their early pilots, they have the biggest single seater fleet of any civilian club in the U.K.

I agree about the Pegase and LS-4, I am not familiar with the Jantar Standard.

In my own opinion, the ASW-19 is a nice glider and I would always be happy to fly one. The Pegase is nicer, and the LS-4 nicer still. This is also the order of performance, and of price.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove 'ic' to reply.

Libelle or Kestral both under $20K ... Maybe an LS-4 on the higher cost side.

BT

Are you seriously recommending the Kestrel to a low hours pilot? Fifteen million knobs and levers, some of which make life very interesting very quickly, big glider handling and flaps. Sheesh.

Well, a Jantar Standard 2/3 or Junior (depending what You like more - LD 40:1 or extremely easy handling respectively) would be perfect I think. If You'll be looking hard, guys from my club have found Jantars in CIS fo r a bargain price, and now we have 6 of them at our field. You may look f or them also.

The only major drawback with a Kestrel is the speed control (the airbrakes make a nice noise and that is about all) needed for landing: getting into a short field, or even a long one can be a challenge but with the right training it is not impossible. (The extra levers etc are not a problem in practice) I think that I would have to say that the Kestrel is probably safer for a low hours pilot than a Libelle. The Libelle is a very fine glider but it can also get very interesting very quickly, probably quicker than a Kestrel. My personal choice would be a Discus, very easy to fly and no real nasties but I have no idea of the price of one your side of the pond. I would agree with the choice of an ASW 19 the only problem is the size of the cockpit. Like my ASW17 a challenge to fit if you are tall.

As an aside the is a file on www.gliderpilot.net in File Downloads which describes a modification for Kestrel airbrakes which does help a little. Do not expect Grob 103/ASK21 airbrake performance from this mod

Dave,

Ignore the kestrel and the junior.

Most of the other suggestions are pretty reasonable.

Jantar - looks ugly but has lots of poke Libelle - actually goes better than people think. You just need to fly it properly Cirrus - goes well ASW-19 - nice handling, looks good and has a bit of poke Pegase - nearly the same as the 19. LS4 - if you can stretch to this get one. Ignore all of the above, if you cant then see above!

BTW. There is a good deal on a Pegase on wings and wheels which may be of interest to you. (commission payable to Owain Walters!)

Have to agree Chris, but also disagree.

For what it is worth, I will give my experience of recently getting to the point of having my own XC aircraft.

Most of the first generation glass ships have some quirks, but they are generally easy to fly. If it is still flying after 20-30 years it can't be THAT fragile iether.

I made my transition as a very low time solo pilot to a Standard Cirrus and found it a relatively easy move. The quirks and inexperience are going to have you paying some school fees though... I was seriously considering buying a low performance trainer as my first personal glider, as I felt this was all I was competent to fly. In retrospect I'm very grateful for the advice I got (some in this forum) to go and buy a glider that would let/force me to develop.

Chris is right in that you will probably be gratefull for a sturdy aircraft when you make the inevitable mistakes. I had to repair some gel coat after overbraking and getting her on the nose, and being a early model Cirrus the landing characteristics, coupled with my hamfisted flying have resulted in some interesting arrivals. 100 hours in the Cirrus and I am getting to the point where an outlanding in a field would be OK (not comfortable mind). My one outlanding so far was at an airport with decent facilities. I could have tried to make it home, but caution is better for keeping the glider intact...

What I found was that even in the case of a glider with a bit of a reputation for being challenging it is possible to make a safe transition and get going on XC flying. My flying capabilities are no better than average for a low time pilot (<200 hours) As long you take progressive steps you will not be exposing yourself or the glider to extreme risk.

That said, some things happen because the glider is old. Metal fatigue on my main wheel rim had me sliding down the runway with a locked wheel after the rim seperated - very lucky to get away with a new rim and tyre there.

My Cirrus has around 2000 hours on the airframe, she started life as the mount of a couple of very competitive pilots. They flew her to the limit as a (then state of the art) racing machine. She has at least 8 flights > 500km and one over 800km under the belt, has been groundlooped, landed in rough fields and landed without the benefit of the main wheel twice. The most serious damage to date was when my partner landed neatly on the grass runway parallel to our tar runway, and hit a landing light that had been displaced when they cut the grass. The cockpit tub split, and a new canopy was needed, repair took two weeks.

All in all, repairs have been relatively minor, cheap, and relatively quick to make.

My advice would be to buy a glider that will challenge you and let you develop as fast as possible. I would not advocate first buying a low performance, but tough trainer. I can't speak for all of the others, but certainly my Cirrus, the Grob and the Libelle are robust early glass ships. Certainly I would not describe the Cirrus as fragile.

I certainly would rather have the constraints of having to learn the cautious way in a glider with 36:1 than end up landing in the dirt regularly. 6 months of getting comfortable and slowly challenging myself has us at a best XC of 250km, one airfield outlanding and one landing where I damaged the glider. I only have 8 hours in an Astir, so you must take the opinion for what it is worth, but I would be quite happy to recommend one. It is tough, docile and has reasonable performance. Certainly a lot easier to land than the Cirrus although a little slower cross country. The mods to stop flutter are not exactly aesthetically pleasing though.

Whatever you do - that first personal glider is likely to be yours for a long time, so rather get a 'stretch' glider than one you are going to grow out of fast.

David,

On your other thread you gave your experience as:

'In my case 'novice' means about 20 training flights & a few solo flights in a Grob 103 II A. I guess I'm really just a beginner!'

The recommendation to buy a Kestrel is irresponsible and dangerous. I owned a Slingsby Kestrel 19 for 8 seasons. It is now outstanding value, performance for the money, but completely unsuitable for someone of your level of experience.

I think a Libelle whether 301 (flapped) or 201 (standard class) is also unsuitable. Owain owned one (perhaps still does if he has not found a buyer yet) and flew it very well with considerable success. His 201 has the Sreifeneder mods., winglets and improved wingroot fairing.

He gives a clue to the problem with the Libelle when he says 'You just need to fly it properly', to an experienced pilot this comes quickly, but you do not need this problem!

Libelle airbrakes are not as good as those on the ASW-19, Pegase or LS-4 and at your level of experience this matters a lot.

The Libelle is probably the easiest and lightest of all gliders to rig.

I have flown a Junior, it is a nice glider and an obvious first solo glider for a club to own. But the performance is not as high as the other gliders mentioned, and you would soon outgrow it. I suspect that there are not many of them in the U.S.A.

I know of one club which owned a fixed wheel version of the Pegase. They trained on K21s and the requirement to fly the Peg. was 5 hours solo. I flew that glider and liked it.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove 'ic' to reply.