Using Motor Gliders for Training

I am looking for feedback on the use of motor gliders for instruction. Specifically, initial training and cross country field selection etc. If someone has experience with any of these, I would appreciate your input. How did the use of motor gliders work out? What motor gliders were used for such?

Some advantages we see might be: 1) reduced costs of initial training. 2) accelerated training (not having to wait for tow, more time in air)

I believe that Derek Piggot did some work in this area. Does anyone have information about this?

Thanks for any feedback you can provide! Wells Morse

Wells Morse schrieb:

We used the Scheibe SF-25B, C, seats side by side. It's easier for the teacher to give instructions ...

I took my first few (very few) flights in a G-109 and found the experience very useful. These motorgliders seem like such a great idea, you have mentioned some of the advantages...there are others. My limited experience has been that the disadvantages outweigh the considerable advantages, although I remain hopeful. That particular Grobe spent at least two months down for every two weeks that it was operational. For example, the engine had to be removed to replace the generator belt because the accessories are driven off the rear. One time in particular, an unfortunate pilot had a prop strike while wheel landing the beast. It sat for some 6 months waiting for a prop to arrive from Germany (perhaps they had to wait for the tree to grow).

Twice, I later scheduled time in a Diamona while on business in California. Both times, the beast was down with dings or mechanical trouble; coincidence?

The point is that motor gliders can be delicate and the parts support can be half a world away if it exists at all. If you base a commercial operation on motor gliders, design your operation to survive considerable equipment down time.

Vaughn

I have had a Com. Glider operation for over 30 years with Blaniks,2-33,Janus and Supercubs. Eight years ago I bought a Grob Twin IIISL, which is an Acro with a Rotax Klapptriebwerk (retractable engine). Operating it for two years I decided to sell all 6 aircraft and keep the Grob going to a one man operation. Partially the traffic at my airport dictated this too.

I have given Rides and lessons in this glider during the last 8 Years, very successfully. There have been days where I flew 8 Rides in a day without any help or ground crew. I have also made 500 K X-country soaring flights, and 300K with students or passengers. The overhead is negligable. With the exellent conditions here, often I am in the house thermal after 4 minutes, where the climb rate more than doubles. Exploring the thermal under power one has time to center it, test it. 3 minutes later the engine is retracted typicaly. After that, comes most comonly a 1 hr Ride. Or, if it is a lesson as long as the student benfits from it. So there is very little engine time.

For take off and landing practice the engine can stay out, during pattern flights. All other landings are always done as a glider, roling of the runway with final inertia. This glider has a steerable nosewheel. Often I do taxi fast enough to have aileron control,wings level.

All those years I had hardly any downtime, posibly, because I was the only pilot flying it. For club use or Flight schools, only the top instructor should fly this plane, possibly the same who also services it! There are too view of these gliders in circulation for the word to be out, what can be done with them. I am referring to real self launching sailplanes. The Grob and the DG 500. Those can really soar, also for long distances.

I feel instruction should be limited to dual, in order to keep a valuable Sailplane like that flying and working. They are possibly more complicated than a 172! Even in a Flight school for power planes, it could be used. More than half of the reqired time could be done in a glider, and the student could end up with both licenses for the same money.

There are several very low priced and simple single seaters apearing. The student would transfer to those, when it is time to solo, of course this should not be rushed, trade offs! One could in effect have a glider license and never have experinced an aero or an auto launch. With the new rules, all of those are ratings, more or less.

A couple of years ago, I went to the old place in Germany, where I learned, for a visit. There is winch launch only. Also for contests. Sometimes 3 winches, 2 drums each. next to each other. When I left there, I said to myself, you people do not know it yet, but in 10 or so years Soaring will look completely different. Same really goes for aero tow. You need extra pilots, lots of gas and maintenance. The rotax is a simple snowmobile engine, it lasts for ever, if not mistreated.

Think up!

Dieter Gliders Of Aspen

The article from Derek Piggot on using a motor glider for trainer can be found on the Gliding and Motorglidng International web page at
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/ ListFeatureArticleDtl.asp?id=55 http://www.glidingmagazine.com/ ListFeatureArticleDtl.asp?id=90 http://www.glidingmagazine.com/ ListFeatureArticleDtl.asp?id=108

The article is split into three web pages

Cheers Stephen

Gliders Of Aspen a écrit :

Good point ! Operating with a tug plane is not always compatible with activities at public airports.

For many years, the necessity of a ground crew have been the « essence » of soaring clubs. As many people, I would like to stay with club environment, because a club is more than just flying. Beyond our desire however, the reality is different. Individual participation in clubs has sinked in the last few years to a point that if there's no significant change in the trend in the next very few years, clubs will belong to History.

But hard to say from now how it will look in 10 years...

In some countries, it won't be a surprise if it disapears...

It's true for low end 2-stroke. But...

While USA is not exactly the greeniest country of the World, it appears that it can be among the first ones to bannish 2-stroke engines in recreational vehicules. The US snowmobile maker Arctic Cat is gradually switching from 2-stroke to 4-stroke and it's not a coincidence. Two stroke engines are big polluters (and not exactly efficient engines - a 65HP 2-stroke Rotax burns a lot more fuel than it's big brother, the 4-stroke 81HP 912. And more oil too...

If USA bannish 2-stroke engines, Canada will soon follow. Bombardier, the Canadian snowmobile (and airplanes, and trains...) maker is a partial owner of Rotax (which is know as Bombardier-Rotax). That could mean that we should expect a new generation of small 4-stroke engines for snowmobiles and ultralights, in a power range lower than the heavy 4-cylindres 912, with low noise level, low fuel consumption and no black smoke and fouled spark plugs (better reliability then)...

Of course, I don't think existing 2-stroke engines will be bannished: just production of new ones.

Do we really want to fly a glider with an engine named 'bombardier'???

Larry Goddard '01' USA

When you meet a beautiful lady, do you care about the name? Give her a nice nickname. Of course if the one called 'Wankel' is as good looking, go for that one. There is also attractive electric and solar power coming!

Sounds fine if you make it 4 syllables: 'bom-BAR-dee-yay'

Larry Goddard a écrit :

I know... In French, bombardier means bomber (without the capital ...

: If someone has experience with any of these, I would appreciate your : input. How did the use of motor gliders work out? What motor gliders : were used for such?

: Some advantages we see might be: : 1) reduced costs of initial training. : 2) accelerated training (not having to wait for tow, more time in air)

: Thanks for any feedback you can provide! Wells Morse

I instructed in a Grob-109B, N109FH, in Colorado.

I believe the costs were about 3X the cost of learning to fly at Colorado Soaring Association, in the SGS-2-33.

The FUN factor was way up, though! It took only the instructor and student to roll the motorglider out of the hangar, un-hook the wings, walk each out to the side and latch them in. Then we could operate like a Cessna-152 (all-be-it at a much greater price). Then we could takeoff, climb to lift, or high enough to shut down the engine and do normal airwork (figure about 28:1 glide ratio with the engine shut down and the prop feathered).

The first landing back at the airport was always a 'dead stick', like a normal glider landing (without the engine). Then, to get more takeoff and landing experience, we would crank up the engine and do takeoffs and landings. Wheel landings are especially fun!

Later in the training, or just for fun, we would take off from Fort Collins - Loveland Airport (FNL 5016 MSL), fly west over the continental divide, shut down the engine, and soar down to Granby, Colorado (GNB 8203 MSL) for lunch. Departing, we would climb eastbound to the continental divide and shut down on the east side of the divide and soar back to FNL.

This was ever so much fun! If the Grob-109B was available to me for instruction again, I would teach in it without hesitation! Note, I believe the Grob-109A was 80hp, and the 109B is 100hp. The 109A was marginal for high altitude operation in Colorado, that is why we got the 109B.

Happy motorgliding!

Jer/ 'Live long, learn much, soar high... and prosper.' Eberhard