Building skills.

Hi All

Not trying to start a 'my machine is better than yours contest here' but an opportunity has presented itself to buy a share in a Standard Cirrus, and I would appreciate some information.

I was wondering what the consensus is on the suitability of a Cirrus as a first personal glider. Our club aircraft are low performance wood and fabric types, not well suited to more than local soaring. Specifically - is it a good platform for developing cross country and advanced soaring skills in? I am not wanting to be a competition champion, but I do want to advance my capabilities - so it may be a good idea to do some contests to force some development. Our CFI is very nervous of the Cirrus' reputation for being challenging to fly for a low time pilot. With the all flying tail it does appear sensitive in pitch, but since the only glass ship I have flown is a docile Grob 103 (dual) I am not in a position to evaluate.

Any observations, especially from experience, welcome.

Thanks

Bruce,

I can understand your CFI's concern about a glider with all-moving-tailplane for an early solo pilot. OK once you're used to it but first you've got to GET used to it. Lack of elevator feedback is the problem.

A friend of mine in a similar situation to you tried out a mini-Nimbus (all moving) 2 weeks ago and PIO'd it into the ground on her second attempted tow. It put her off the plane and set the insurance company back several thousand pounds.

Have a good long talk to your CFI before trying one and get a really good briefing before you fly.

Have fun

Rob

At 08:00 25 April 2002, Bruce Greeff wrote:

Bruce

There are two distinct Standard cirrus models. The early model is under braked and the minimal washout on the tips makes low speed handling tricky. The later Cirrus 75 has improved airbrakes and an improved wing, so handling is much improved. Both are delights to fly and are good for cross-country soaring but the Cirrus can be twitchy due to the all flying tailplane and spring trim. I fly both models (we have one of each in my club) and the later model is certainly more docile.

It is generally accepted that the Standard Cirrus is a tricky first single-seat conversion (Derek Piggott suggests it is better suited to a competent pilot as a second glass machine), although I know of one club that used to use it as such (I don't recall the club having any problems but they later got a more docile Junior). In my club, the Cirrus is the second single-seat conversion after the Astir CS, but then our pilots have access to a Twin Astir prior to conversion to the single. Up until a few years ago we used to use our old ES60 Boomerang as a first single seat conversion. That aircraft has an all flying tailplane and is considered by many to be unsuitable for first single-seat conversion for much the same reasons as the Cirrus. We used to train for it by flying brakeless approaches in our two-seater (tube and fabric) to see how the student handled the float and never had any problems in nearly 30 years.

If you feel you can't let the opportunity to buy this aircraft go by, talk it over with your CFI and see whether he can assist with some suitable training.

Some tips:- 1. Practice brakeless approaches in a two-seater. See if you can flare out and land properly without ballooning or twitching on the elevator. 2. The cirrus is prone to ground looping in light crosswind conditions when aerotowing with the belly release. Get a good wing runner (and fit a nose release). 3. Make sure you can reach all controls and instruments and, if you need to use cushions, ensure they are firm. 4. Keep the release knob/lanyard within easy reach during the launch, especially in the early stages of the launch. 5. Hold the stick gently with your right hand and rest your forearm on your leg. This should help prevent PIOs. 6. Fly your first flights with some extra ballast to improve stability.

Regards

Christopher Thorpe (CFI) http://www.beaufortglidingclub.asn.au/

Hello Christopher

Thanks for the well reasoned contribution. Just for interest

Unfortunately the Cirrus in question is Serial number 75 - definitely one of the 0.57 degree washout models. This explains the reputation for being a little tetchy on landing.

At our club conversion options are limited to a Blanik L13 which is quite different. However I have flown a Grob 103 (Twin Astir) and enjoyed it, although the roll response seems somewhat ponderous compared to the lighter wood and fabric I am used to.

There are social reasons as well. I will be discussing the matter with Willem (CFI)

Done that, once inadvertently stowed the brakes , once on a simulated cable break to reach the safe landing area at the other end of our 'rustic' runway. More practice will no doubt help, especially as I tend to prefer the steep approaches possible with the BergFalke.

Already has a nose release, and we winch launch exclusively.

At 1.86m having enough space is one ofthe reasons the Cirrus is attractive. We fly with fitted parachutes, so the comfort aspect should be OK. Of course the parachute needs serious cleaning after a recent visitor threw up all over it...

On winch you learn this early. Cable breaks get REALLY interesting if you are trailing the drag chute and a couple of hundred metres of wire because you forgot to release.

With the proviso that the control forces in a Bergie require a slightly firmer grip, this is the technique taught at our club.

At 105Kg - I guess extra ballast will be superfluous, I think the max allowed is 110?

Thanks for the advice. Bruce

PS Nice website - Our club website is at www.whisperingwings.org.za if you are interested.

Hi Tim

No voices in my head,gets lonely in here sometimes, but there you go.

Looks like the key bit is the number of hours P1 in a glass ship. Just have to work on that before taking on a low serial number Cirrus I suppose.

Looking forward to the challenge. Have fun in whatever you buy and may there be many more cross-countries.

Bruce

Unfortunately I've never gotten around to trying a Cirrus (even though there are half a dozen around our club), so my experience in the matter is nil.

On the other hand I've got a few dozen hours P1 time in an early Janus, which is similar in a lot of ways. Same manufacturer, same vintage, same flying tail, aerotows using the belly hook.

I've never had any problem with the elevator on the Janus, and I think a lot of people don't, but then I've also seen some people have a *lot* of trouble, especially on first takeoff. People seem to be very polarized about the Janus, either thinking it's a great aircraft (I do) or else the bigest pig in creation.

If there was an early Janus somewhere near you then it might be a good idea to give it a try. Plenty of people transition to a Cirrus without doing that, but then it would certainly take that worry off your mind. If anything, I believe it's harder to fly than the Cirrus.

All Pegases, 90 or olders, are C101. You are right about the fully automatic control hookup on the 90 models. The funny thing is they kept the small removable panel used to give access to the l'Hotellier connections on the former models, probably in order to avoid changing fuselage molds.

I also wondered why they left that small hatch in place. As far as I can tell it serves no useful purpose at all on the 90.

I'm not aware of any carbon spars in any Centrair glider.

Fair enough. I stand corrected. I was just quoting what the folks at Williams Soaring told me when I asked what a 101D was and then extrapolating that a 90 would build on the final 101 model.

'I also wondered why they left that small hatch in place. As far as I can tell it serves no useful purpose at all on the 90.'

Actually this allows access to the ELT when installed.