Briegleb 12B - Opinions?

Hey ya'll,

Any opinions/experience regarding the Briegleb 12B?

As always, I look to the vastness of your communal experience and appreciate willingness to share it with others. This is a great group.

unfortunately, I'm afraid that most potential buyers for BG12's or similar typically 'cheap' gliders are there because they are new to gliding and looking for a cheap glider...and most pilots who would have the experience and enough knowledge to reasonably safely fly one also have enough experience and knowledge to know they no long want to fly one.... I owned 2 BG12's back when I was more in the former category....I would not want one today, nor would I like to see anyone without a lot of experience and skill flying these type s today....aside from that, you have to remember they are all experimental, and are all homebuilt, without any requirement to use aircraft grade material or hardware, without the requirement to have to inspections completed by A&I's, usually built by armatures as their first and only attempt at building an airplane, and of course have no FAA support through the issuance of AD's or service bulletins to warn of potential failures..but on the other hand, I think a BG12 or a Monerai would make a terrific Wind Tee at a local gliderport! tim

Well, <blush>, that's me.

Seems several people have had nice things to say about these little wooden puppies in RAS over the years. Is there anything in particular that would make this the case, aside from performance?

Is this because of the handling/performance characteristics or because of a fear of sub-standard construction techniques/materials?

This, of course, is true of any homebuilt aircraft. I guess anyone who buys instead of building runs a certian risk. The one I'm looking at was built in 1963 which makes it only a slight bit younger than me. If it's in no better shape than I am...

On the other hand, some of these were built from kits produced by Gus Briegleb, some from plans. Is there anyway to reliably determine the heritage of a particular experimental aircraft?

Maybe a windsock from Sporty's would be a better investment. Anyone else have any insight?

JJ? John? Bob? Ventus4? You guys have things to say about almost everything.

I am looking for a 'cheap' plane. For starters, at least. Like everything else I get involved with, whatever I get will likely end up costing me a Citation at some point. (No, I can't afford one.)

Thanks, group.

Curt East Texas, USA

Marc,

I live in East Texas, so far East I could toss a rock into Arkansas from my office window. Assuming my office had a window. I anticipate flying around the airport here until I get bored. There seems to be only one glider operation nearby. If the clouds are right, and myself and my bird are up to the challenge, I'll probably want to try some short XC. Honestly, I don't aspire to entering the Nationals or trying to break any world records.

As to cost, I don't want to spend more than fifty thousand and my wife doesn't want me to spend more than fifty. Dollars. Seriously, I simply want to fulfill two old dreams... building (or restoring) a glider with my father, and to get my ticket - glider. I might even move on to airplanes in that I can pretend the expense serves a more useful 'purpose' than mere recreation.

The BG-12 seems to have a pretty decent L/D for a wooden homebuilt. Very light wing loading would doubtless make for poor penetration, but like I said, no contests are planned. Assuming this one is built OK, it claims a considerably better L/D and payload than either the Duster or Woodstock and it can be purchased for less that the cost of materials to build either of those. Plus, it's built.

And, no, I don't think I'll find a partner for a real glider. Everyone around here that I talk to about flying a plane without an engine seems to think I've lost whatever remained of my mind.

Sigh.

10000 Euro will buy you a Libelle in Europe, there's a club libelle for sale for under E6000 that needs a new gelcoat. Regel that with your dad, a much better bet! The other alternative is ( shock/ horror ) one of the Marske flying wings, manufacturer still liquid and available for advice, parts and support.

Best bet is to buy a complete aircraft and restore a sailboat with your dad - much safer!

Ian

Get a ka-8 or ka-6. Great sailplane to overhaul. Look good, fly well and they have resale.

a far, far better bet would be to buy a factory manufactured AND Certified design....I cannot say enough on how important it is to have a design that has a track record, and a record that can be tracked (the FAA only issues AD's on certified aircraft). Also having a glider produced by a real aircraft manufacturer at the very least should have aircraft grade materials, engineering, and a rigorous flight testing program. If you're seriously interested in restoring a glider the Vintage Sailplane Association is a good place to look for gliders or sellers who may have or others that may know of good projects to sell for low cost and even good older designs that you can have now that are already in airworthy condition. Too often I see buyers look only at L/D as a basis for their buying decision, but in a glider if you want to go someplace you have to be able to stay up too.....for beginners it's pretty hard to beat gliders like K6's or K8's as entry level 'Sailplanes', these will cover a lot of ground if you fly them like K6's and K8's....a bit slower than some, but they fly very nice, are quite forgiving and when you do end up landing out can do so slowly, predictably and safely.....and if you're going to fly locally like you said it makes little difference how much territory you cover if it's all in one place!

As always, my standard advice about buying homebuilt aircraft remains:

1. Recognize that every builder has different sensibilities and standards of workmanship, and adheres to the designer's plans to a different degree. Some homebuilts make me proud to be a fellow tool-bearing mammal. Others make me feel unsafe just walking under them. Most are somewhere in the middle. Caveat emptor, and your mileage may vary.

2. Have it pre-buy inspected by someone familiar with the type; preferably someone who is familiar with the blueprints and can recognize deviations from the plans. Don't buy an airplane sight-unseen unless you've considered and prepared for the possible worst-case scenarios.

3. Be aware that, if you're not willing and able to work on it yourself, it will likely be no less expensive to own than a factory aircraft. Depending on who you hire to work on it, it could be substantially more expensive.

4. Get familiar with the 14 CFR (or relevant national) rules regarding amateur-built experimentals. The most salient points are: Anybody can work on them; but the annual condition inspection must be signed off by an IA, an A&P, or the holder of the repair(person) certificate.

That said, I'd like to address some of the points that Tim Mara raises in his post on a branch of this thread. For the most part, I tend to agree with him, but I'd like to elaborate a bit on his ideas:

It depends. It took me several years to consistently fly to the edges of my HP-11's potential. Expanding on that, most actual glider _pilots_ have the skills and techniques to handle the average homebuilt sailplane. For most well-established homebuilt designs, the skills and aeronautical knowledge that got you a private pilot rating will probably suffice. Based on what friends have told me, that includes a properly built and tested BG-12. Glider _drivers_ and other sub-par variations on the theme, on the other hand, may find themselves slightly challenged. That said, I allow as that I prefer to see better-than-average piloting skills in HP-18 transitions. The uber-reclined seating, the side-stick, and the Schrederon flaps are three new experiences all at once, and if you get behind the ship late in the game it can be hard to catch up.

Not that we'd expect him to, what with Tim being a big-shot sailplane dealer and all these days...

That's pretty much covered in Part 1 of my standard advice. The good news is that experienced folks can generally tell aircraft materials just by looking at them. The nuts and bolts are yellow cad plated, and the bolts have the X on the head. And in my experience, US sailplane homebuilders generally stick with AN-type hardware since they can get it from AS&S or Wicks for less than nuts and bolts at the local hardware store. Also, many homebuilts are specifically designed with extra strength margins to account for the use of less than top-grade materials. Many such designs actually specify relatively low-grade materials in the plans.

Going off on a tangent, in contrast to the US AN-style aircraft hardware used in most homebuilts, the hardware used in European sailplanes is very hard to grade and identify by inspection. There are many different systems of plating, drive types, head stamps, and thread pitches to deal with.

However, as I've written elsewhere, they have to be inspected by either an A&P or the holder of a prepair[person] certificate. Of which, as I've written elsewhere, I prefer to use the A&P or AI. I continue to believe that anyone who built an airplane cannot view it with the impartiality necessary to inspect it properly.

Yes, the FAA generally takes a hands-off approach to homebuilts. But the same applies to many factory-built European ships licensed as Experimental, Racing and Experimental, Exhibition.

For most experimental types, though, there are type-specific organizations that compile and distribute safety and service bulletins. The HPs, for instance, have a strong network centered on Wayne Paul's Schreder Sailplane Designs Web site. There are several safety and service bulletins on the site, and regular exchanges on the Internet email forum about operational concerns. There are similar Internet fora for the Duster, BG-12, and other designs.

Well, maybe for a while. But assembled out in the elements, a BG would only give a few years of such service.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.

Did'nt one of these come apart about 4 years ago when the flaps failed and seperated inflight

the pilot a young man was killed IIRC.

Dont buy this junk there are better ships out there that are less dangerous. These 60/70's homebuilts are cheap for a reason pay some more and live longer!!

Al