Bangs for Buck

Ben Flewett started a good idea when he talks about bangs for buck.

Comparing NEW machines price/performance wonder what is the best 'bang for the buck'. I guess I am looking at $$ per L/D point?

Bob K.

Bob,

That's one of the most sensible eMails I've seen on this forum in *months*!

Different strokes for different folks. If more people thought about that before posting here it would be a lot nicer place.

Ian

good stuff Bob,

looks like normal RAS is coming alive again ....

cheers

[lots of good stuff]

... and it's not only about comparing one glider to another - there's always the question: One expensive glider vs. three cheap ones?

Seck ...who is having a share in a Janus syndicate, has unlimited access to an unlimited toy glider, and still sometimes misses a T-21 for late-hour ridge soaring 'with the wind in your hair'... :o)

My first Glider was a homebuilt HP16 with HP18 wings, $8500. Best bang for buck ($/LD). $217 Second Glider Ventus b Not as good bang for buck but I like it better. $904.

Richard www.craggyaero.com

Ah, the T-21b - it's been 50 years now - it there one available to fly in the U.S.A??

Well, as others have and will point out, $$ per L/D maybe ain't the best comparison.

However, you asked about comparing price/performance on NEW machines. Never having had a new glider, or even a brand new car for that matter, I may not be a good person to comment on this, but here goes:

If you are asking about conventional 15 meter or more wingspan glass, in no particular order:

Discus CS has got to be near the top for bang/buck on a NEW glider. Glasflugel 304CZ (or C for that matter) What are the LAK-17's selling for? They might be right up there.

Don't neglect the new lighter birds:

Apis, Silent, Sparrow Hawk and kin. I found the Apis to be comfortable and looks solid. I was a little disappointed to see that the Apis 15 meter wing will be pretty much a lengthened 13 meter. But, at higher speed, the 13 meter wing may outperform the 15 meter. Some friends flew the Silent and liked it.

The PW-5 + PW-6 package deal seemed very good to me.

Gliders are like many technologies: each incremental improvement in performance tends to cost more than the one before. Which means that if you look at performance-per-dollar, the lowest-performance example of the breed is likely to win. Moore's Law is such a revolution because semiconductors are a counterexample. Gliders aren't.

So:

Modern sailplane, with trailer, 45:1 glide, $70,000 approx. Ratio: about 0.64 glide points per $1,000.

Swift foot-launchable sailplane, with travel box, 24:1 glide, $20,000 approx. Ratio: about 1.2 glide points per $1,000.

Modern hang glider, with roof rack, 14:1 glide, $6,000 approx. Ratio: about 2.3 glide points per $1,000.

Interestingly, that's about the peak. A modern paraglider gets around 8:1 glide, costs about $4-5,000 with kit, so the ratio is only about 1.6 - 2.0.

Not that this convinces me that the 'best value' is a hang glider. It's a different experience entirely.

By the way, if you want to estimate what it would cost to buy a glider with performance of G:1 glide, you can get a good approximation with $ = (G^2.1)/42.

So for example a 40:1 glider should cost about 40^2.1 / 42 = $55,000. A 50:1 glider should cost about $88,000. A 60:1 glider should cost about $130,000. A 90:1 glider should cost about $300,000. A 30:1 glider should cost about $30,000. A 20:1 glider should cost about $13,000. A 10:1 glider should cost about $3,000.

Roughly.

I guess you could use a curve like that to get a measure of 'value for money,' although it's rather less intuitive than glide/dollar!

Cheers!

disappointed to see that the Apis 15

Wallace,

It was nice to meet you at the Convention. Yes, the 15 and 13 meter Apis wings are made in the same high quality molds. The tooling to position the root rib for each span is movable. The air brake box is also move a bit in board for the 15 meter span. And of course the lay up schedule of the carbon fiber skins is changed a bit. You the consumer recive the benefits of the simple method of providing alternate wing spans. Look at the prices! 13meters for $22,306 and 15meter for $24,442.

None of these new light gliders are meant to go head to head with the pure racers. The goal is to keep the price and weight low and provide a fun glider to fly. I think those goals have been fully met in the APIS and quite likely in the others too.

I get a lot of questions about high cost options and span extensions and I'll bet the other dealers do too. Sorry but those do not go together with low weight and low cost. The Silent and the Apis were both designed to the European ultralight regulations, the SparrowaHawk to the U.S. Ultralight regulations. Within those constraints I think the designers have done a very good job of providing fun, low cost, new gliders for us to enjoy. With any of them you get a lot of bang for the buck. Adding whizbang features can be done but will add weight, cost and deminish the world market because of regulatory constraints, thus raising the per unit cost.

Robert Mudd Apis Sailplanes inc.

snip

I do not disagree with the above, but in defence of 'max L/D' it is quite a good starting criterion, in my opinion.

Certainly if you wish to regularly go cross-country rather than being content with local soaring. Just think of 'gap-crossing', where the appropriate L/D can be an absolute in staying airborne.

There are many good-value second-hand buys of sailplanes with Max L/D approaching or exceeding 1:40. Lots of 15 metre glass and carbon ships, for instance. That is where I would think that the best bang-to-buck ratio can be found.

Of all the other factors that Bob mentioned, comfort for your own personal geometry in the cockpit is probably the most important.